Window sash balance bottom guide not supporting the window
Thanks for posting. Did you recently replace the balances in this window? If so, are you certain they were exactly the same channel balances as what you had previously? If you did replace the balance, please send us pictures both of new and old balances, specifically the fittings on both ends as well as any stamp on the metal channel, and we'll try and determine just what you're working with.
If these are all original balances, can you send us photos of the bottom corners of the sash? There may be some structural integrity issue that we might be able to discern from pictures, though I'm not certain, and note if that's the case there's almost nothing we'll be able to do, unfortunately. That would be a structural issue with the sash frame itself and not something we can replace. That said, pictures will help determine this one way or the other.
I got some 2420s and put on the end pieces. The top piece is no problem, but the bottom piece (see photo) ends up in an inverted half-V shape, where the slanted part goes from the balance inward to support the window. The problem is that when I push the window down, that slanted part is forced outward, and it moves far enough so that the window comes down past it, wedging the bottom end piece against the frame and not supporting the window.
I haven't found a bottom piece that is an L shape, where the base of the L would go under the window and support it, or maybe where the half inverted V is longer. I tried cutting part of the end piece so that it looked more like an L, but I don't know if this would be structurally sound and would last. I am thinking about taking a small metal angle and expoxying it to the balance at the bottom, where the base of the L would go under the window and support it. If there are different end pieces that look like they might work for my application, I would appreciate if you could please send me a link to them.
Hey there, Bob isn't here today but I will do my best to assist you.
Before we go any further, I think you have a misconception of how these bottom fittings work. They're not meant to cradle the sash and support it, they're only meant to brace the sash against the side jambs and keep it from shifting side to side. If you've looked over any of our balances currently in stock, you might have noticed that we sell quite a few shoes with a nearly identical design, only differing in how deep they are. Different windows require a different shoe depth, but it's all to that one purpose: to keep the window from shifting. It's not meant to grip the window in any way, shape, or form.
The shoe serves no other purpose and I would strongly advise against trying to alter it to support the sash, as you described. It wouldn't do anything even if you did. The way these work instead is the top fitting fits under the guides at the top two corners of the sash itself. That's the primary connection point between balance and sash and where the load is carried.
Otherwise, I agree with your analysis: someone probably repaired your window and used the wrong balances. It happens all the time. The bad news is that if we don't have a more confident reference for what the original hardware was, it won't be possible for us to make a recommendation. The best I can offer you is a guess.
Let's try to eliminate all other possibilities, first, just to be safe. If I have to guess I want to at least make sure it's an educated guess. To start, do you have any window in the house from the same manufacturer that might still have its original hardware? Don't worry about size or anything, I'm just interested in make. If so, we can use that balance as a reference.
If not, would you happen to know who made the window to begin with? Knowing the brand might at least point me in the right direction, or at least narrow down the list of possible replacements.
Lastly, I will need to know the precise weight of the sash in question, as well as the height of its visible glass. That will at least let me calculate the proper length and spring calibration for the balance, if not the combination of nylon fittings. We may have one last Hail Mary in store if all other possibilities fail us, so don't worry. I'll get you something, it just might take some handiwork in the end.
The balance top end piece fits to the sash top support piece by a slant to slant surface. When I push the window down, the two slants push apart so that the window slides down, and then the bottom piece (shoe) is wedged against the side of the frame and binds the window, although I can still move the window if I push hard to overcome the friction.
Maybe the sash top support piece is wrong. If it could connect to the balance top piece without sliding, that would be better. Also the balance bottom piece (shoe) looks like it might stop the window from closing completely, since it extends slightly beyond the bottom of the sash.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Yep, I see the problem right away. Your top sash guides appear to have broken clean in half. Looking at that last photo, there isn't anything on that side that would even hold the balance in place. It's probably only just barely clinging on, which means any shift in the sash might actually cause the balances to shoot up in the frame. That might be the source of your woes.
The first thing you should do is replace those broken top sash guides with the right replacement. Yours looks to be a pretty typical style so I feel confident that we have a match, but it's a little too damaged for me to narrow it down all the way. Would you happen to have an undamaged version I can look at? In the meantime, see our 18-166. This is a fairly common pairing with the style of top fitting your balance uses. It's far from a guarantee, but it might be a place to start. Compare it to an undamaged version of your old guide and see how well they match up. If they don't match, then I will need a photo to narrow down the list of possibilities (right now we're looking at around a dozen options).
With all that out of the way, there does seem to be a minor discrepancy between your visible glass height and the balance you purchased. You said before that you bought some balances with a 2420 option, which indicates a metal channel length of 25". However a visible glass height of 23" usually requires a 24" long balance, which is one inch shorter than what you bought. This would also explain the issue you're experiencing, so right now we have two points of conflict that we'll have to address.
In my opinion, you should fix that broken top sash guide first before you do anything. It has to be replaced anyway regardless of balance length, so you may as well fix that first and then try it with the 25" balances that are already in your possession. If you're lucky, they'll work without issue and you can finally put this project out of mind.
However, there is a strong chance that the 25" is too long. To save time, it might behoove you to just buy the 24" balance now and get it over with.
I have a couple tricks up my sleeve for what nylon fittings you should get on the new balance for peace of mind, but let me know how you want to proceed from here first. To reiterate, you have two issues that need to be addressed: a broken top sash guide and a balance that's 1" too long. Either issue alone might be the source of your problems, but more likely you'll have to fix both before these windows are repaired.
Of course, I was happy to help. Please let me know how it works out or if we can be of any further assistance.
I am thinking that the 2420 is still too much spring for this window, and maybe a 2410 would work better or even a 2310.
I would be glad for any suggestions.
I'm sorry to hear that you're having trouble. Based on your description of the issue, it definitely sounds like the springs are too strong. However, you said in your initial posts that the sash was 12.2 pounds. The 2410 stamp option only holds 5 through 9 pounds, so you would have the opposite problem: the window wouldn't be able to stay up.
I also see that there was some question as to whether the 25" long balance was the right size or not. This very well may be the source of the issue. If you do decide to go with a 24" length, then you have to make sure that the stamp can cover 12.2 pounds. It can't be stronger or weaker, so the 2320 option is what you want to go with.
That's great news! I'm glad to hear it worked out. Feel free to reach out if we can be help in any other way.
